In conversation with Sarah Hagger-Holt
Sarah Hagger-Holt is an award winning author. She lives with her partner and 2 children near Watford in South England. To date she has penned 2 nonfiction books for adults and 4 novels for young people.
Sarah kindly joined us over Zoom to talk about her experiences of being an LGBT+ parent, her new book, The Fights that Make Us, and its connections with LGBT+ History Month. You can purchase The Fights that Make Us from Queer Lit. If you use this link, 10% will be donated back to Proud 2 b Parents!
Lizzie: Can you tell me what your journey into parenthood looked like?
Sarah: Growing up, and in early adulthood, I hadn't been interested in having kids. I've got quite a small family so I was never one of those people that was always surrounded by babies. As a result, having my own children never really crossed my mind.
My partner and I have been together for about 20 years. She was very keen for us to start a family. Before we got together she had already spoken with a gay male friend about how if they wanted to start a family, they'd help each other out. He and his partner became great friends of ours and we got on very well. Over time, that conversation got picked up again and turned into something more serious.
So our route into starting a family was very much through co-parenting. Most of the time the kids live with us, but their dads live close by and they see their dads regularly.
Lizzie: What are some of the joys of LGBT+ parenthood for you?
Sarah: Our situation works really well because it sort of gives us this huge extended family. We've got four parents for the children and all these grandparents, aunts, and uncles. That gives us a lot of assets and the richness of lots of different adults, and kids actually, through all the cousins in our kids’ lives.
Also, there is more of a concept that family isn't the same as people you are biologically related to. The thing that matters is the relationship, rather than your DNA. So it can be really inclusive and it can bring in other people. I really love that.
I also really like the way that, as part of a same sex couple, I’ve been able to step away from the heteronormativity of being a parent.
Lizzie: And some of the challenges?
Sarah: Sometimes the kids have felt they have had to choose who they are open about their family with. It’s not as simple for them as it is for other children growing up.
I don't feel like my partner and I have had a huge amount of challenges. Although in the early years you'd get intrusive questions or you'd have to explain things. Whereas now I think we're a bit better at being like, ‘this is us’.
Over the years as LGBT+ parents and carers have become more visible and numbers have grown, it's less likely that the first LGBTQ+ family somebody meets is yours. That's something that has definitely changed.
Lizzie: Did you ever feel a bit of pressure sometimes, when you were one the first LGBTQ+ parents someone had interacted with?
Sarah: Yes, sometimes. I remember once when the kids were really little, and somehow both my partner and I got the day off, so we went to a soft play centre. You know how it is sometimes, when you're tired, you’re a bit ratty, you've forgotten your things, and you feel all out of sorts with each other…
We had to register and the staff didn't understand who the parents were and how we could fill in their form and we were just really grouchy. Afterwards we felt like that was a moment to be some kind of ambassador and show how wonderful LGBTQ+ families were - and we were just a mess! That kind of pressure could make us feel like we always had to be switched on.
Lizzie: Did you know many other LGBT+ parents when you had children?
Sarah: No, we didn’t when we first started out. There wasn't anyone we knew personally. And I don't think there was anyone in the wider media at that point either. It’s still hard to find another co-parent family like ours even now.
We were able to build a network though. We were really proactive about finding people and making connections. It was a bit of an extreme response to end up writing a nonfiction book about LGBTQ+ people’s different parenting experiences. That was quite a desperate attempt to make some friends!
Lizzie: How did your first book, Pride and Joy: A guide for lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans parents, come about?
Sarah: Once we got into the whole swing of parenting we began to look around and question, ‘What happens after this? Where are the stories? The role models?’ That is where the first book that I wrote (co-authored with partner Rachel) came into being. The book contains interviews and conversations with about 70 Different LGBTQ+ families.
I had some amazing conversations with people from all routes to parenthood. Surrogacy, adoption, co-parenting, anonymous donor, previous relationships… I spoke to people who had their kids in the 70s and people who were just getting pregnant. It was just fascinating.
The hope was that other people would benefit from the book and find it interesting as well. And we were fortunate to find a parenting based publisher who took us on. We were their first LGBTQ+ publication. I suppose those conversations were the seeds to write fiction as well as nonfiction.
Lizzie: That moves us nicely into talking about your other books!
Sarah: Getting into the fiction side of things did feel like a step up at first. But it’s been great. It's fantastic to be in a position now where visibility is increasing.
Part of telling the stories and writing the books that I do is saying actually, you know, we exist. Families like this exist. We've got interesting stories. So perhaps we could also be visible in the kind of stories that kids are reading as well.
Lizzie: How does it feel knowing that other LGBT+ parents and carers, and youth, are reading your stories?
Sarah: I'm so chuffed. It’s so nice. There are things in my books which represent families like mine but also there are things in there that are a bit difficult and challenging. No family is completely perfect and all sorts of issues come up.
I'm never sure how people respond to that. Will they find it helpful? Uncomfortable? Maybe both! So it's always great to know that people are actually reading. I think it's a richer story when it's as real as possible. In some cases there are challenges and those things aren't unique to LGBTQ+ families. But there are unique expressions of those situations people have to face.
Lizzie: Exactly, and by not talking about them, it doesn't make them go away. And they are things to think and talk about together, aren't they? So if a young person wants to explore a topic like finding their donor for example, it’s fantastic to have resources that can accompany those conversations.
Sarah: Yeah, and all of it was from having spoken to lots of families and then pulling all those different bits together.
Lizzie: I can see from your website how much your work has expanded over the years, and you now do school appearances and workshops in addition to writing.
Sarah: It’s been lovely. Not only as an author but because it makes sense. You're getting out there and putting yourself and your book in front of people. I get this chance to spend time with a room full of kids who quite possibly aren't going to read any of my books - and that's fine! But they get a little glimpse of some of those stories. They at least see some families that might be different to theirs, or they get to see something that's a bit similar to their family, that they might not have seen in other places.
When I go into schools I make sure no one is ever put on the spot. Kids never have to share something they don't want to. But actually, it gives a place for people to share some of their experiences as well. Kids will sometimes come up afterwards and tell me a little bit about their family. Particularly if they have 2 mums or 2 dads.
Often the questions I get asked are things like ‘How old are you?’ or ‘How much money do you make?’ But some kids ask stuff that they never felt like they had the chance to before.
It's a safe space because it's all in the context of the characters and the story. So I'm not talking about an individual or a real life thing. And so particularly for my book, Nothing Ever Happens Here, where one of the main character’s parents comes out as trans during the course of the story, that has been really interesting doing it in schools over the last four years. And had it been discussed in a relationships or PSHE lesson, it wouldn't allow for the same sort of space.
Lizzie: That's absolutely fantastic. It’s so great especially because I'm guessing that some of your schooling experience would have been under Section 28, like mine was.
Sarah: Absolutely. Young people are much more relaxed about these conversations than I am! For the last couple of years I've been doing a bit of testing to see what people know about the history and whether Section 28 has any meaning for people in school now.
The odd person might have heard of it but people are generally quite shocked when they discover what it is. So that led to me feeling that I want to tell a story about Section 28 as well.
Lizzie: Can you give readers a quick introduction to The Fights that Make Us?
Sarah: So my new book, The Fights That Make Us, is set across 2 time periods. In the present day Jesse has recently come out as non-binary and is struggling to find their place at school, and ideas for their project on lost stories from history.
Jesse stumbles across their cousin Lisa's teenage diary from the late 80s, and they are fascinated and horrified by her stories of living a secret life and protesting against Section 28. When their teacher, Mrs Knight, prevents Jesse and their best friend Simran from sharing these stories as part of their history project, the two friends take matters into their own hands.
Hopefully this will be interesting for younger readers and will help them to think about life then and life now - and how is it different? It was quite a cathartic book to write actually.
Lizzie: It makes complete sense to launch this book in LGBT+ History Month!
Sarah: It feels like quite a relevant conversation now, in 2024, because of all the focus on trans guidance for schools in England.
There's lots of relevance in thinking about where schools fit in, in all of this, and what their role is, and how the government uses minority identities for its own ends. That's what was happening in the 80s. That's what's happening now. It’s not like the culture wars have just been invented. They were absolutely happening then too. But you don't see it when you're living it, I think, but then afterwards when you look back it does seem really, really similar.
Lizzie: How was the process of researching The Fights that Make Us?
Sarah: I found it really interesting. I did lots of research for this one and went and looked at old newspapers and went into the archives.
I grew up in London and quite a lot of the sort of coverage was quite London centric because it was about London Labour councils. At one point I saw a picture of someone I recognised in an article. So that was a kind of weird moment of realising this wasn’t just archive material but someone I know. He had some anti-LGBT+ views but he also seemed like quite a nice guy. And all of that became very personal.
I found lots of stuff about Section 28 and the protests against it that I didn't know, but that was a personal reflection that this was happening all around me. Although I was only about 7 or something at the time.
Lizzie: It just goes to show that it can be several decades ago but also now at the same time.
Sarah: At the start of February I did a joint event around the book launch with someone called Professor Catherine Lee. She's written this amazing book about her experience as a teacher under Section 28. She still works in education now.
One of the many things her research shows is that teachers who were teaching under Section 28, and still teaching after that, are often still not out in the staff room. They're still not comfortable. Laws can change but actually social attitudes and people's feelings of safety take a bit longer to change. So there's always this kind of legacy that continues.
Lizzie: This has been such a fascinating conversation, thank you. It has been absolutely wonderful to chat with you today! Before we wrap up, do you have anything you would like to say to newer LGBT+ parents or LGBT+ parents to be?
Sarah: All our situations are going to be so different, but I think it's about having that confidence in yourself and as a family. My only other advice I think is to go for it!
You can find out more about Sarah Hagger-Holt and her books on her website or purchase The Fights That Make Us from Queer Lit.
Don’t forget, any time you shop at Queer Lit, 10% will be donated back to Proud 2 b Parents. Thank you!